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Ramli John:
Hello, everybody. Thank you for joining us today. I know this is a topic that a lot of people ask over and over again, and you are going to be checking it out, about ProductLed sales. How does sales and ProductLed work? Often, people think that Product-Led Growth is anti sales. And Wes and I are like, "No!"
Ramli John:
And Anna here, she's operating partner at Arthur Ventures. She's seen a lot of companies implement sales or high touch into product lead motion. And that's going to be really interesting and how that works out. I know for a lot of people who are in the program, you are sales... You're probably have a hyper sales slide right now trying to go ProductLed and probably finding that Millie Brown is the best thing, but let me introduce, Anna. Anna, how are your things going on your end?
Anna Talerico:
Great, thanks. I'm excited to be here. I will say I've led a ProductLed team that was adding in sales and I've led a sales driven company that was trying to add in ProductLed. So I've definitely, I see a lot of it every day in my role, but also I've lived it as an operator, both ends of the spectrum. And you Romli, you coined this idea of ProductLed sales as a phrase. And it just, to me, it's really perfectly described, like whether whichever end of the spectrum you're coming in on it is some form of ProductLed sales. And so I love the phrase and I love talking about it. Definitely, it's a passion of mine, for sure.
Ramli John:
Interesting. I didn't know you went from the other end, let's talk about that. Let's say a very sales lead org. How do they find the middle ground so that the sales team doesn't get scared? That's usually make something we hear over and over again, is guys we're going ProductLed the first resistance... The first team to resist is the sales. They're usually like, 'ah, we're going to lose a commission and stuff." What do you say? How do you manage that piece?
Anna Talerico:
I think that's such a great question. And you're right. So a lot of sales driven companies feel that pressure to become ProductLed because it's just a better way to acquire customers. And because that's what your buyers want, this is a reason everybody's moving to ProductLed is that's what buyers are expecting. So if you have this sort of sales machine, and then you want to start to talk about being more ProductLed, sales teams get scared. I think that's all about honestly, just positioning to the sales team,. Because what we want is sales teams to be excited and understand this is accelerating the buyer's journey. And especially early days, this is not about taking away commission, this is not about changing territories or...
Anna Talerico:
Early, because we don't usually flip on a self-service channel right away when we're trying to move to ProductLed. That's the hardest part of becoming ProductLed. If you weren't built that way. So early days, it's about getting a more ready buyer in front of the sales team, where they've made the decision already. And so what we should see for the sales team that the benefit is faster sales cycles, for sure. People coming in kind of deeper in their journey, start to see one call closes, we start to see close rates go up. So if it's positioned correctly, there's literally no reason for a sales team to be nervous or scared. And so a lot of this comes down to sales and executive leadership, positioning correctly. That's in the early days.
Anna Talerico:
As we start to evolve to true ProductLed growth, we start to let's say, have a self-service motion, where truly people can sign up. And we've gotten further along in that sort of continuum, that is an inflection point where sales teams start to see the writing on the wall. "What does this mean for me now? Customers that used to come in and buy from me, they're buying online." And there's two phases to this too. The first phase is being okay with paying commission on something that's going to come in self service. So meaning, and we see this a lot, even in ProductLed companies that are quite mature.
Anna Talerico:
A buyer could be talking to a salesperson and then thinking they're about to close and then they just go sign up online and they never kind of closed the loop with the salesperson. So I learned this from a couple of very great ProductLed sort of ProductLed sales leaders. In that middle part, you just say, "That's okay, I'm going to pay commission anyway." And you create some rules of engagement around that, so that you lessen the fear of the sales team. And then there's a middle ground.
Anna Talerico:
And then as you're truly... You've got these bifurcation between sales and self-service acquisition, that's where you need to start to transition the team to focus more on expansion. And so that is a transitional point, but hopefully if you've been doing all the things right, all along that way, it's been an easier transition. And now you've got the team ready to jump into more of an expansion motion. So I think it's... That was a long-winded answer, but it is... There's phases to that transition.
Ramli John:
Hmm. I love how you kind of communicate it and phase us in. I love you brought up commission, I guess that's definitely the first part. I mean, can you talk a little bit about that? I mean, a lot of people who are joining us are in the product team, but there's also that question, what will that commission structure look like? Will it change? Some people believe... Some ProductLed companies I've talked to it's like, "We don't give commissions at all anymore." Which is like, "Oh, that's interesting." [crosstalk 00:05:31] Team commission versus, I mean, individual commission, which is more of a wrench in the-
Anna Talerico:
It is. Yeah. So if you're really ProductLed from the get-go, you are acquiring your customers through a self- service channel. I am the first person to say, we should not be commissioning salespeople on that. We have some portfolio companies that do that extraordinarily well. They don't have commission sales, people never have, and probably never will. I think great. A lot of times I come into a ProductLed company and what I see as salespeople getting commission on one call closes, that's crazy. That's not efficient. It's not fair to the company to be paying commission on things like that, that the product and the marketing team kind of delivered that customer, we shouldn't be paying commission on it.
Anna Talerico:
But there's this middle ground when you kind of got sales and you've got ProductLed, there's this middle ground where you might have somebody engaging with a sales team to go through their buyer's journey for whatever reason. And then they decide to buy online and that needs to be commissioned. And there need to be rules of engagement around that. Like, how much interaction is worthy of a commission? How long? What if I haven't talked about lead in three months and then they come in and buy, do I commission that? So we have to establish those rules, but I'm kind of a... I'm a reformed on this. And when I first was leading a ProductLed company and we were layering in sales. I would say, "No, we don't get commission. If you're working a deal and then they go buy online. That's crazy. They should be buying from you if you've created a great buyer experience." But that's just not the case and it's not buyer friendly. Somebody might want to engage with a salesperson and then go buy online. And that sales person put in the work.
Anna Talerico:
So again, I got some advice from some people who are much wiser on me and had been through this before. And they said, "You're kind of being penny wise and pound foolish, if you just don't incentivize the reps just to make a great buyer experience." So I think that if there's a significant interaction between sales and a prospect, they needed to be paid commission even if they buy online. That said, if you're truly ProductLed, you don't need commission salespeople either. If there's just a couple of questions and then somebody is ready to buy, we shouldn't be commissioning on that. So there's a few different ways to think about it and it's not always so clear cut.
Ramli John:
That makes a ton of sense. Yeah, you're right [inaudible 00:07:57]. I love how you communicated that. I mean, thank you for sharing that. And one other question, Wes and I get a ton around is, when should sales reach out? And there's always this tension with often products is like, "Don't reach out too soon, I guess because you're going to destroy that momentum. You're going to annoy them." And then sales on the other hand is like, "We got a quota and we need to close. Whoever comes in, doesn't matter if they have a Gmail, we need to reach out." So I mean where's that balance? Based on you viewing a lot of companies, what's a good rule of thumb to when should sales reach out to sign ups?
Anna Talerico:
It's a great question. So there's not a rule of thumb. It depends and I'll explain how. But I would say the first thing about this is, you have to have a sales leader that is aligned with his ProductLed motion and understands it. So that they're in the boat with the executive team, not just protecting the sales team because you have to protect the sales team and I'm a sales leader. That's how I came up before I got across all of good markets. So I say that with a lot of love in my heart for the sales leaders and sales teams, but you have to have a sales leader that's in kind of both camps. Protecting their sales team, but also truly aligned with the ProductLed motion.
Anna Talerico:
So when should sales reach out? Depends on how much the product can do on its own. If you can get people into a trial, let's say for example, and you can have a very high kind of adoption and usage in that trial. And you have a very acceptable, high sort of... Or at least kind of benchmarked, good conversion to a paid customer. There is no reason for sales to get involved, unless we want to get them involved later to expand the account. Sales should not be part of that motion from user to free trial to now a paid customer. There's simply no reason. But a lot of companies, the product's not there yet and so you do need a sales lift and that's great. This is where they have to be complimentary. So if you have a product that conversion rates from trial to paid could be better, sales can help. We can double that conversion rate maybe. So I think it's really specific on where the products that and how much of the lift can the product do.
Ramli John:
Yeah, this really, really great point in when should sales reach out. I was like, you're right. It really depends on how much your product can do because people... Interesting enough, some people do want to talk to sales and that's a really interesting thing with a call to action is, have a place for people to raise up their hands and say, "Hey, I want to talk to sales." Is that what you're... The best experience you're finding? Where like, sure you're going to release this ProductLed motion, but there might be people who sign up for your free account that actually would love, actually love to talk to sales, they're begging at the door and you're call to... You're get in touch is hidden in three, four pages down.
Anna Talerico:
Thank you. This is a really good... This is a very finely nuanced question. Yes, so a lot of people that go into a free trial motion let's say, or a true ProductLed motion. They actually don't even realize they could talk to sales or they don't think that they can, or we're burying that kind of down there. So this is a great example of... And you are a better expert at this than me, but what I like to do is put in a touch in the on boarding or in the trial, whether it's in product, whether it's in email, however it is. That says, "Hey, do you have questions? Do you want to talk to somebody?" And so let's put it in front of them that they can talk to somebody. And whether that goes to a non-commissioned support team... You've talked to some of our portfolio companies that do that extraordinarily well.
Anna Talerico:
Whether that sort of... Somebody is raising their hand and saying, "Yeah, I do want to talk to somebody." Whether that goes to a non-commissioned support team, that's just there to empower users or it goes to a sales person. We let the user request it, but we don't bury it. We put it in front of them. Because you're absolutely right, a lot of buyers... As many buyers that want to buy from a ProductLed motion, there's just as many that still do want to talk to sales or still are required to by their organization. That's the other thing. I used to find this a lot at Linux Academy that we had this whole full self-service option, but people would call in to support and they'd say, "I have to talk to somebody before I can give a credit card." Why would we get in the way of that?
Anna Talerico:
So a lot of times when we think about layering in sales, we have to think about doing it in a way that doesn't get in the way of how the buyer wants to buy. If a buyer needs to talk to somebody, the buyer wants to send in a wire that they're ready to go. They don't need to talk to a salesperson, they just need somebody to transact the deal.
Ramli John:
I love that. And it's funny because somebody asked me this once, "What is the best type of onboarding? Ramli, you're going to obviously say ProductLed." And to my point, I say, "I don't believe that. I do believe hybrid approaches. That's the best way to get the most." And that's... I talked to one of your portfolio companies, Jane [inaudible 00:13:15] will I share, is exactly how they approach it is, why would we stop somebody from reaching out if they might actually want to... Like you said, send a wire and it could be a big contract in that sense?
Anna Talerico:
Yeah, Jane's done this, I think, extraordinarily well. And the big, exciting thing to see them doing it is, it's scaling so well. They're just growing so quickly and it's scaling. So why get in the way of that? And I think the way that they've empowered their customer team to do full stack. Retain, expand, sell, support, it's exciting to see them doing that at scale, yeah.
Ramli John:
I mean, they had a really interesting org structure as well. And Wes and I've been getting a lot of questions around this lately, with this cohort around, what does a ProductLed organization structure look like? And once you have a unique perspective because you've seen a lot of different companies and how they structure orgs and it'll be fascinating to see if you see any pattern as to does sales support the growth? Or that's an interesting, if they're going to realign their business strategy around being ProductLed, the question now is what kind of org changes do they need to support that business strategy?
Anna Talerico:
Yeah, that's a great question. There're a couple of things I think about that I'm seeing more, and even my thinking's evolving towards. One of the things I see a lot of that I will say bothers me and so I'm working hard on is, when we have a ProductLed goals and we don't have products owning that number too. If we see just marketing or just growth, owning a number. Product has to own a ProductLed number too. And I'm a big advocate for that. If the company's got self-service acquisition goals around how many trials, how many trials convert. Product has got to be part of that conversation, that goal setting, and part of accountable to that number too. So that's one thing I don't see enough of, honestly.
Anna Talerico:
But in terms of trends, in terms of setting things up, one of the things I'm seeing that works really well, and I've come around to this is this idea of a revenue owner. Whether it's a CRO like a chief revenue officer, which we tend to think of that as a sales title, but the truth is this gets back to everybody being aligned. What you need is leadership, whether that's executive leadership, whether it's a specific title growth, whether it's the CRO. You need leadership that can bring these teams together to work cohesively and not fight for resources or fight for who gets credit.
Anna Talerico:
One of the things I always worry about is contention around credit. I don't want the go-to-market teams worrying about who gets credit and that only will come from a leader who's truly across all of those things. So I think we're going to see more of that, whether it's called CRO, whether it's called head of growth, whatever it is, it's got to be under a leadership umbrella that is totally aligned. And nobody's fighting for credit. That's the one thing I always... I want to undo right away is when I come into an organization and I see people worried about who gets this proportion of credit that this deal or these deals that got won. I want everybody working towards the same thing.
Ramli John:
Really fascinating. I had a chat with the VP of growth at Seven Chefs, they're just employee scheduling for restaurants. That's what they did. He was VP of growth now he's going to be head of revenue and sales, marketing, customer success reports to him, which is like... He owns that beginning part so that there's no contention, like you said, which is really, really fascinating that you're seeing this trend with companies with the chief revenue officer or head of revenue.
Anna Talerico:
Yeah. And it's funny... What's funny is I'm really starting to see the light, I came around. I never used to love that title, or I thought it was just a trendy title. And also I love marketing being separate from sales. I think there's a lot of benefits to that. So even when you think about marketing, sales, kind of rolling up to the chief revenue officer, but I'm starting to really see that how necessary it is in a ProductLed function, whether you're layering sales in, whether you're already ProductLed, whatever kind of mixed you are at, having this kind of cohesive leadership can really serve the organization.
Ramli John:
I guess my follow up question to that and before I do, if anybody has questions, this is your time. I'm asking questions that I'm curious about because just based on talking to other people, you can drop it in the comments, or you can let me know, and I can introduce you in. But I mean, in terms of hiring that, I'm curious now. Let's say, "Hey, okay, we should have a head of revenue or chief revenue officer." What kind of things should they be looking for, for that role, for that hire? Are they looking for anything specific in terms of experience or quality or anything else that you can give in terms of tips around hiring for that role of the head of revenue or chief revenue officer?
Anna Talerico:
Yeah, that's a great question. Ramli, you're always coming in with a good questions. I spent a lot of my time on this actually, I spent a lot of time helping our portfolio companies find these right people to kind of lead this chapter of growth, whatever the title might be. I think one thing is whether you came from customer role, whether you came from a product role, whether you came from a sales role or a marketing role, I think that is inherently a focus on the customer and the customer's journey. And you can come from any of those backgrounds to do that. But what you have to do is be aligned with... And have a vision of how to go to market in a way that aligns with how your buyers want to buy and how to enable and accelerate that and their success.
Anna Talerico:
So I think more than anything, I'm looking for an attitude and an aptitude and characteristics that are clearly centered on the user and our customer and the buyer and the users. That's number one. And I think you can come out of this... I think I've seen people come out of product organizations that can lead it. That's maybe the least likely path, but you certainly get product leaders that are pretty aligned around this. I think you see it for sure in people that have gone through this transition, they've been in a sales role and they've had to transition to ProductLed. So they sort of think... Get a more expansive view of what that means. And those are really natural revenue leaders. They're used to owning a number. And the marketing too. A marketing leader, a growth leader that has been owning a number, they're quite natural fits too. So I think any of those walks of life, I think it's more just the mindset.
Ramli John:
Interesting. This might be a curve ball, but would you hire from outside the firm or promote up from marketing or sales or product [crosstalk 00:20:05] this revenue? I mean, because they probably already have a good idea of the customer... Hopefully they have a good idea of the customer journey if you're working in a company for some time.
Anna Talerico:
This is a deeper question. I mean, this is a-
Ramli John:
Sorry.
Anna Talerico:
No, I mean, this is an existential... Across every function, this is something that startups struggle with. Are we going to hire from within? Are we going to promote from within? Are we going to have to bring in external leaders? And this isn't across every function, at every stage of a startup. And so whether it's this or anything else, I will say, you will see the people that are growing and scaling with the organization who can rise to that level. And it's always great if you can get somebody internally to do that. And those people naturally reveal themselves, you should not have to go find them. You see them, you see them out in front leading and understanding all of this.
Anna Talerico:
And then a lot of people can't do that and that's okay. There's people that are great fit at a certain stage and then they just aren't the right fit for the next stage. And that's totally okay and those are times where we have to bring somebody in with external perspective, with fresh eyes, relevant experience. A lot of times in certain jumps, we have to bring in people that have seen it and done it before. But if you get a true ProductLed organization, a lot of times, everybody in the room, they've never done it before. They're just... They strapped in and they're going and growth is happening and it's very exciting. And then they get to a point where they can really stand to have some people in the room that have seen it and done it. So we don't skin our knees. So we don't make mistakes and that can be really beneficial.
Anna Talerico:
So I think both paths, promoting from inside or bringing external, I think the most important thing is, if you're going to bring somebody in from the outside, it has got to be stage appropriate. Somebody who grew company from 50 million in ARR to a hundred million in ARR is not stage appropriate to go from five to 10 million in ARR. And so that is really important. Somebody who understands the resources, sort of the scale more than anything. The biggest hiring mistake I see when we go outside is not understanding the stage appropriateness of the higher.
Ramli John:
Interesting.
Anna Talerico:
Yeah.
Ramli John:
Can you talk a little bit more about that? Let's say, what kind of... The strange appropriateness, so what stages and what things would they... Should they hire for a based on start up versus scale-up versus maybe [crosstalk 00:22:31]?
Anna Talerico:
Yeah. So I think a big one in startup and even scale up is there are two different kinds of people that have operated at that stage. And one is our builders and then the other are the people who operated, what's being built. And what I mean by that is there's... In a startup, there's always the first person who has to implement Pendo and implement chargebee, implement all of these things, these systems and these processes, and these go to market motions. There are people who are building that for the first time.
Anna Talerico:
And then there are people who are operating it. So they're seeing it being built, but they haven't actually... Or seen it now that it's built and that's what they're familiar with. And I think that if you get things built, you have got to find a builder. That's one of the mistake we see a lot of is, you need things that are built and you hire somebody who has seen those things, but they haven't actually built them before themselves. And so you see people come in like that, they're expected to build systems and go to market motions and they don't have that in their tool belt. They only know how to operate something that's already running. And there are people that are great at that. But if [inaudible 00:23:45] a builder, you've got to find somebody who's actually built before or have that initial employee that's just doing it along the way, which is great when that happens organically. So that's a number one.
Anna Talerico:
It's like, "No, am I finding a builder or am I finding somebody to kind of run something that's built?" A lot of times in these ProductLed startups, you see founders who have built it and what they need now is not just somebody to come in and rebuild it, they need somebody to just come in and run what they've kind of got going and add to it and accelerate it. So it's a startup and even the scale up phase, that's the most important distinction for me is, are we hiring a builder or are we hiring somebody to run something that's working really well and just make it better? Yeah. So let me pause there because that was a lot, even just for startups phase.
Ramli John:
No, this is good. I'm loving builder versus... Yeah, I mean builder versus just doer. I mean, is there anything else you'd like to add? I mean, this is really interesting.
Anna Talerico:
Yeah. I think that's one thing at the startup and scale up phase. And then even then the other thing is stage appropriate and that's the other mistake. We see, let's say a high growth startup. So they're still in kind of building, they're a little bit in scale up and they think let's go get a heavy hitter. Which is great, who doesn't want the A-plus player, the heavy hitter? But what they end up doing is they are 5 million in ARR and everything's firing and they're growing really fast and they go get that a hundred million dollar candidate. Well, that's really different. Running a five person product team or a five person sales team is really different than running a hundred person sales team or product team or 200.
Anna Talerico:
So I think the other thing of those early days is finding people that are stage appropriate and making sure, being really sure they don't have a happy years. That they understand the resources, that they're going to recommend appropriate resources, appropriate budgets, appropriate teams. And it's just painful for companies to over hire.
Ramli John:
That's so true because then you'd have to go to the exercise of [inaudible 00:25:48] over hiring, which is very, very painful.
Anna Talerico:
Painful. Yeah, definitely.
Ramli John:
I mean, thank you for sharing this. We got deep around hiring this head of revenue or chief revenue officer. I guess a followup question on that is when it's the right time to hire or promote for that role? And sorry if I'm throwing another curve ball here because this is really fascinating. When is it the right... Should we do what we do now up to a certain point where like, "Hey, we need to get sales, marketing and customer success under one leadership." And when it's that, that right time?
Anna Talerico:
Yeah. Great question. So I think it's different for every company. So it might be at 5 million in ARR. It might be a 20 million in ARR and there's the... What are we looking for? When do we know it's time? I think one is, if by doing what you're already doing, you can continue to grow quickly, you can double every year in revenue, you can triple, if you have just this flywheel that's actually happening, you're probably good to just keep flywheeling and then... But at some point that initial flywheel kind of starts to hit a wall. It's like, think about Atlasian, they're totally ProductLed and then at some point they say, "Let's get some sales in here or let's get some different revenue leadership in here. Let's get some different customer acquisition channels in here." It's because... Could they have kept growing? Absolutely.
Anna Talerico:
But you start to go, "Wait, the flywheel is kind of tapping out. But there's still so much market to acquire. There's still so many customers." So one is like, at what point do you start to, as a founding team or early team, start to see... You're looking out and you're seeing, wait... I think that happens. So we start to see we need to bring in somebody that can help us because this flywheel is only going to get us so far. That's one thing.
Anna Talerico:
The other thing is when you just start to see... You don't know that path, that jump. So really interesting when I think about my time at Lennox Academy, I came in with this company, had incredible product market fit, an incredible ProductLed strategy, incredible growth to that point. But to the founder's credit, he knew to kind of now jump up to this next massive level of growth or to go from 20 to 30, in less than a year or to 20 to 40 in less than a year that it would take some other things too. So part of this is founders intuition.
Anna Talerico:
It's time I can... I'm at 20, I got here somewhat effortlessly with a great product and great go to market. But now I want to take it to the next level. I need professional [inaudible 00:28:34]. I need professionalized sales. I need professionalized marketing. So I think too, there's a... I'm a big believer in founder intuition or founding teams intuition. They know. So it's a vague answer, but it's different. It could be 2 million in ARR. It could be a hundred million in ARR when it's time to do it.
Ramli John:
Thank you for sharing that. And I know I'm wondering why the time [inaudible 00:28:56]... Stop here. I'm going to try to extend this because this account is definitely pro so.
Anna Talerico:
I hate it when that happens.
Ramli John:
I know seven minutes left. I mean, like I said, anybody who has questions, please, this is your time. And I'm going to extend this out so that... I'm not sure what's happening, but we're going to get the flower. But I mean, while I still have you, we've talked a lot about here about different things about chief revenue officer, about hiring. If you can share one or two advice to ProductLed leaders, what kind of advice would you give to them? And this... The context is a lot of the people, most of the people in that program right now is going from sales side to ProductLed. And they're facing that challenge. You said you were about trying to get buy-in from organizations and maybe it's not the right time for them to hire a chief revenue officer.
Anna Talerico:
Yeah. So most of our companies are ProductLed and there... I mean, are sales lead and we're moving towards ProductLed. Is that what you... Yeah? So for the most part, our audience here. So, it's interesting. So if you are sales lead and you are moving towards ProductLed, there's a couple of things I think about, I mean, one is to make sure that you probably already have a sales leader and you probably already have a marketing leader because you're probably running a fairly standard SAS, modern sales playbook. You're generating leads. They're getting qualified by SDRs. They're setting appointments for AEs. AEs are closing them. There's an expansion team. This is a pretty standard model that we're all running at this point, if we're sales lead. And so for there, the thing is, can your current revenue leaders... Can your current go-to-market leaders, get on board with the ProductLed continuum?
Anna Talerico:
And that goes back to what we started talking about at the top of the hour... The top of the session Ramli, which is these are going to happen in chapters. We don't go from sales led to ProductLed overnight. We go from sales lead to now a ProductLed buyer that's still in our sales funnel, to now we've got some customers maybe we're acquiring online. And there's a lot of overlap between the self-service channel, the sales channel. Now to a full fledged self-service channel. So one is, I would just say, you have to think about it as a continuum that there are stages and you're not going to go from stage one to stage end overnight. And it's very good for you to get organized and get some sort of thematic principles around these stages. And then you've got these go-to-market leaders already because you're running sales lead.
Anna Talerico:
Are they aligned across that? Are they in the boat with you? Are they for the overall strategy and are they truly for the overall strategy? And that they believe the ProductLed is the way to go and they're willing to be in that boat with you, even if it means pretty radical change at the end of that spectrum. And this is hard for people. If you're a sales leader, this is hard. You're going to... You've got reps that feel like they're competing against a self-service channel, or maybe you might feel that. So unfortunately there's no magic bullet here, there's just great collaborative leadership relationships and good trust that we can get there together. And if we can't, then it might be time to bring in other people.
Anna Talerico:
But you also have to be okay that this is going to be hard for people. And you have to give them time to process that and get in the boat with you. The second your sales leader is freaking out, or you can feel that tension. That's not the time to say, "Oh, we need a new leader." You've got to give them time to process and get to the end [inaudible 00:32:54] with us. So I think that two is be patient with the go-to-market teams and try and get everybody in the boat if you can. Long-winded answer, that was a great question.
Ramli John:
Thank you so much. I mean, I don't see any other questions, but if people did have questions, you're on the Product-Led Growth Slack channel, the Canadian [crosstalk 00:33:16]. Is that appropriate or what's the best way to reach out?
Anna Talerico:
Yeah. LinkedIn, I'm on the ProductLed channel, Slack channel, which I love as you know. I hope people reach out. I'm super passionate about this and I'm super passionate about both ends of the spectrum. And I think that when you're a sales lead and you're trying to move to ProductLed, having been there myself, it can feel a lot of times like you're pushing a boulder up a hill. You have to just kind of break things down into... Along that spectrum like, "What are the steps we can take?" So I'm always down to talk about ProductLed sales, it is definitely a passion of mine.
Ramli John:
Well, awesome I don't want to... I guess we'll get back 20, 25 minutes of people's time. I'm going to drop this recording in, but like you heard Anna [inaudible 00:34:05] Slack channel, and I've already connected her with another team around people asking around ProductLed sales. So feel free to reach out and thank you once again. I know we really appreciate this time.
Anna Talerico:
Thank you as always. I love your questions Ramli, so thank you and hope everybody reaches out. I'm happy to talk about it.
Ramli John:
Awesome. Well, thank you.
Anna Talerico:
Thanks.
Ramli John:
See you guys later.
Anna Talerico:
Thank you. Bye.
Ramli John:
Bye.
