This course will give you the growth skills, knowledge, processes, and frameworks to confidently build and grow a product-led business.
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Ramli John:
So today is the last session. Are you all excited about this? It's been six crazy weeks. Just give me a thumbs up, or Y, or one, or whatever on the comments that... We have gotten six. Oh, that's a happy face. It's been awesome. Thank you. I'm seeing some shocked faces. Thank you so much. This is going to be a fun session. This session is about getting clarity on the rest and how to get the rest of your org bought in with for Product-Led Growth. I know it's something that we've heard over and over again. How do I get the rest of my organization bought in? They're also going to share how they have reorganized Jungle Scout. There are I think over 200 people in their in their company right now. Correct me if I'm wrong, Danny or Kaya. But they're not a small startup. And they're going to be really sharing around that.
Ramli John:
So we are now in week six, we've gone through several things already, designing a product-led strategy, defining end users access, monetization strategy. You've looked at the straight-line onboarding. And now we're just going to be talking about getting by for that. Oops, let me hide all of that stuff. Today's agenda, we're going to get, Claudia and Daniel will just be doing a presentation. And Wes and I saw yesterday, and we were like, "This is what the people need right now. This is what you guys are looking for." And we are excited to share this. There's going to be Q&A. So we're going to get through as many questions today. Wes and I yesterday were like, we had a ton of questions. And we are excited to... Drop it in the comments.
Ramli John:
This is meant to be interactive. You know how Wes and I roll. We'd like to take questions. And they've offered that as well. If you have any questions along the way, just drop it in the comments. And then we're going to do a recap because this is the last session. We're going to talk about the exam and next steps. And I just heard some we're planning a graduation next week. So that's something exciting to to hear near the end. So I'm going to pass it back to Wes to just introduce our speakers for today, Claudia and Danny.
Wes Bush:
Awesome. So I'm super excited for today, because both Claudia and Danny are super humble, super open whenever it comes to sharing their journey around how they have really leaned into building a product and business at Jungle Scout. And so I've known them. I'm trying to remember the very first encounter. But it's been over a year and a half, I think, in the journey of how they've been going through this journey from sales that product led. And so they started early on in this journey. But one of the things that I am really happy that they've been able to do is just always continually lean into what is best for the user, asks the hard questions. And really starts really small as far as getting getting some of those quick wins, and then making bigger cases and taking bigger swings for their team. And so Claudia and Danny, thank you so much for coming on today. I'm so excited to see just your progress of how you got product-led buy in at Jungle Scout. So come on board.
Claudia:
Thanks, super excited to be here. Just in case, I am an alumni from the first certification. I think the course is great. So I'm super excited to share the tips in our experience with the things that we have been doing. Danny will drive and share my screen. Let me see. Perfect, we're looking at the presentation. Correct?
Wes Bush:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Claudia:
Perfect, making sure that I'm sharing the right screen. And so a little bit about us. Danny, if you want to start and introduce yourself.
Danny:
Sure. I'm the head of customer success here at Jungle Scout. Claudia and I used to be on the same team and I do miss working with her as much. Though I still get to do quite a bit with her now that she's on a different team. But I've been working here for about three years. And a lot of our challenges have been around, getting customer engagement, adoption, retention, churn, a lot of the things that I know everybody cares about. And we've been really lucky in some of the success that we've had, but it's come with a lot of hard work. And Claudia is really carrying a lot of that forward in the new organization that she's a part of now. So Claudia, why don't you to talk about that.
Claudia:
Yes, for sure. So my name is Claudia. I am the manager of customer experience. We have been going through a lot of changes, as Danny said, but he has been really fun. Along the way we have learned a ton. We have tried, tested, experimented and just iterated and a bunch of things. So it is exciting. It's going to be my fifth year with Jungle Scout so it sounds like forever. And it's been great. A little bit about what Jungle Scout does actually. Danny, do you want to introduce us to Jungle Scout?
Danny:
Absolutely. So for those of you who aren't familiar with Jungle Scout, we're an all in one platform for sellers and aspiring sellers on Amazon. Also about a year ago, while our main platform is more of a consumer SMB type platform, we launched an enterprise platform about a year ago, which has been wildly successful. We also recently acquired another enterprise company just a few months ago. So we're growing fast. I think the company is looking to double in size this year. And with that comes a ton of new fun challenges around Product-led Growth and, and just growing as a company.
Claudia:
Yes. As Wes was saying we actually went past 200 employee mark. As Danny was saying, we're looking forward to maybe double the size. So we're growing like crazy, learning a lot of things along the way. Some of the things that we will be talking about, some of the tips that we have learned. So, be more data driven, is one of the things that we will be talking about, but also taking action on that data. Something that we call data driven decision making. Measuring your results is going to be super important metrics along the way. Putting the product at the center of the experience, but also at the center of your organization. We're going to talk about what Jungle Scout's organization looks like. And building bridges, advocacy, the things that we have done so far.
Claudia:
So to get us started, being more data driven, taking action, measuring results. I might clear my throat here and there, just in case, I happen to be just recovering but bear with me. So when we talk about being more data driven, we want to make sure that we're using that data to inspire and inform decisions, that we're using that to leverage to find opportunities. Leadership wants to hear about opportunities a lot. One thing that we learned is focusing on the quality of the data that we were getting. So making sure that it is really, what do you need to actually make a decision? What is this data telling you? What action can you take from that? And I think at this point, having a really good tech stack, it's really important as well. So we work a lot with Pendo, for example, for product analytics, and also for implementing those promises we learn along the way. We are using a segment data [inaudible 00:07:32] as well.
Claudia:
Now, we're adding actually texts and sentiment analysis solution to help us with all of the qualitative feedback that we haven't collected. And coming to that point, qualitative feedback in data is really important because it enriches the quantitative data that you're going to be fitting into leadership. We can take NPS, is an example. Because knowing what you're reading is great. It's great for you to know where you stand to maybe want to benchmark it against other companies to really hear in, in reading the comments, maybe from the detractors, and listening and understanding what they are saying. It's sometimes more important and useful for you to start those conversations with our teams.
Claudia:
So qualitative data can help you give it a face, like put a face to that number. So that is also really important to give context. One quote that I actually really like, I think I got this from Brian Krause, a webinar that he was doing in Pendo. And he was saying, "You cannot improve what you don't measure." We found this is really key because at the beginning, maybe we were not measuring the right things, we were not showing the right results, and this is key for leadership. They want to see that improvement and the metrics. But another quote that actually Danny really liked is, he's going to talk about taking action. So he likes, "Whatever it gets measured, gets managed." And why it is so important to actually take action on this data that we're collecting.
Danny:
Yeah, and here when I think about taking action, a lot of our initial efforts that we were putting a lot of time into, and really working up these different proposals, but what we were lacking was alignment with the leadership teams. And so, we were being given a set of objectives, "Hey, help us reduce our ticket volume. Help us reduce churn. Help us measure and drive more adoption." But at the end of the day, what we were focused on doing though is, we could never really tie it back to like how that was helping the bottom line how these efforts were driving retention. And so the second we started turning some of that on its head and realizing, how do we align the data that we're being able to measure the things we're being able to measure? How do we turn those decisions into dollars? I think that's a lot of what everyone is struggling with.
Danny:
So understanding very clearly what the leadership is looking to get out of these initiatives, and be able to bring that data back in a way that either validates or invalidates those bets that you're making, I think is probably one of the strongest things that you can do to further your programs. And to get more buy in. I think some of the other things is, really learn to speak their language. If you're talking about a bunch of really obscure metrics or difference, you're really in the weeds with this stuff. I think you've got to bring it back up. And Claudia's got some examples later of how we tied some of these different initiatives to our net retention numbers. How is the people that are participating in a specific training program, how does that turn around and drive retention in those cohorts? And how does that further investment in some of those areas as well?
Danny:
I think the other thing is, being willing to put yourself out there. I think a lot of people are experimentation phobic. They're not willing to take a risk, they're not willing to fail. And I think often, people come up with these really large programs and they want to try something, that's like six months long. But you've got to get quick wins, you've got to build consensus, you've got to collaborate with people. And to do that, you need to do things that can show results in a much smaller timeframe. So when you're coming up with a proposal for something that you want to try or something that you want to do, you want to time-box that. And looking at something like 30 days or six weeks, and really being able to measure what you're doing over that time. And say, "Look, we're halfway through this, and the numbers aren't looking great. We think we can turn this around in the last two weeks." Or, "Man, this is going horrible. And we need to just pull back now and rethink that."
Danny:
So being able to make bets, test, iterate on those results, share your wins, but make sure that you're learning something through each of these tests, and that you're socializing that through failure, we're able to generate more wins in the future by understanding where where things didn't go right. And so it starts to build that culture of confidence in the teams that are doing these experiments. But it also makes them feel like they're willing to take bigger bets out against some of these as you start to see results.
Claudia:
And now that we were talking about that, one example maybe that we can talk through about experimentation. So we tested a bunch of things around onboarding. We tested, for example, onboarding calls in a one to many environment, live training sessions. That was, of course, time consuming, because we needed people to be there. Then we moved to, we wanted to see what the impact was, if we moved this to an on demand setting where it was pre recorded. We were getting a lot of great results as well with that. And then we cut down the friction, we moved everything in app. And we, I think, we're able to almost triple the audience in the reach that we have. So learning from, as Danny was saying, from the things that you want to do, some of those quick wins, but also been iterated on your projects. You're just taking it to the next level for sure.
Danny:
Yeah, and one more thing, a similar thing that we tried early on, and it was probably what got us the most success was, we had our help system separate from our app. So you had to leave the app to go and get help. And by bringing that help system through Pendo, and through other technologies that we use, by bringing that help into the flow of work, into the app itself, people weren't having to leave. They weren't having to disengage. And not only did we increase adoption, and people just getting traction with the things that they were trying to do, we were able to reduce our support volume by 50%, in a matter of three months by just making a simple change. So sometimes it's, the devils in the details. And it's more about understanding your users' process and flow. But these are some examples of some of the experiments that we did that we were able to turn into larger wins.
Claudia:
Yeah.
Ramli John:
Can I ask you questions?
Claudia:
Yeah, for sure.
Ramli John:
Michael is asking, particularly where PLG came fro, for Jungle Scout. Did it come from the leadership or customer success? Is it a top down or bottom up approach with PLG being introduced to Jungle Scout?
Danny:
I think our original leader of the team that we were a part of, I think she was for this. It was more of, she was advocating for us to do it. But we brought this to the table and said, "You know what, there's some great ideas here. There's some things that other people are doing that we should try." And so in this case, it was more of a bottom up. But I think having supportive leadership. There's still parts of Product-led Growth that I think our company isn't fully aligned with. But I think it's more over time of convincing people to change the long held beliefs or assumptions about like, the business can only be successful if we X. And starting to change those through some of these different experiments that we've done.
Claudia:
It's a process. And I remember at some point, Danny and I also bought the book, Forever [inaudible 00:15:37], the audio books. Where you started talking to them like, "Have you heard about Product-led Growth?" And just starting to have these conversations. And tie in the projects that we were doing to the main themes and the most important things, which is creating a product that everybody loves, that our customers love to use.
Ramli John:
Thank you for sharing that. One other question from Alex is around, how many experiments were you running simultaneously through different segments? That's a great question. What did the cadence look like for those experiments? Or are they one week sprints? And are you running, like he asks, multiple ones at the same time?
Danny:
I think it was, it was a little bit of a mix. I think early on, we had some bigger projects that we were doing smaller experiments, but all within sort of the same line of thinking. So when we were doing stuff around Help Center, we had a lot of different experiments that we did, but it was part of a larger project. So we would say, "Okay, we're going to try these two things. This one worked better, we're going to keep going down that path." So I think it was more like thematic. We might have been running several experiments at the same time, but they were all under the same header of the goal that we were trying to accomplish with that.
Danny:
Now, I think we are running quite a few different ones across more parts of the company, different initiatives. But we've got a lot more buy in now. And so we've got cross departmental collaboration, we've got people that are outside of the customer success, or customer experience teams that are working on this. So I think it then becomes more about bandwidth and having ownership that you can spread out. So I think some of that comes with time. But I would say, don't try to get yourself too deep into running too many different experiments at the same time, because you want people's attention, you want their focus. And you need to be heads down on some of these things too.
Wes Bush:
And some of those took a natural chorus. We started with something and then we'd try to bold the initiatives as we were moving into, how can we make this more efficient? And how can we make it take less time or less people? How can we have maybe three times the results with putting a little bit less effort? So some of that we were just like talking through. And I apologize for this the sound because I think somebody's going to lawn outside.
Alex:
This is Alex, thanks Danny and Claudia, just a quick follow up. I'd love to connect with you offline to learn more about experiments. We understand nine out of 10 may may fail, and then one successful, maybe move the needle. So we want to try to do you know quite a few potentially with different segments. And I'd also love to understand again, we can take it offline, if just there's any change management stakeholders with experimentation, user operations, people calling with different experiences on different things. So I will follow up with you, if you're open to that.
Danny:
Yeah. That's great questions, Alex. Feel free to do that.
Alex:
Thank you.
Claudia:
If we don't have any... Again, I apologize for the noise room, we will move if off to the next one. So we were talking about measuring results. This is so important, measure early on. And always remember to have the right metrics. Understanding of what it is that you want to measure and how. And if you effectively is having the same tie in good business results into your ongoing initiatives, that is going to be a big scale for you too as you work in getting buy in for new projects. So make sure that you do have a good understanding of how things were before you implement the new idea. What success looks like? How and where to measure it?
Claudia:
Something important that he was saying, it is great to say, "We accomplish A, B and C." But then adding how that translates into revenue, retention percentages, ROI, that is what leadership really wants to hear. And I think that is something that we learned along the way. Before we were just saying, "We accomplished all of this. We were able to finish five projects." But they didn't know what that meant in terms of money or retention numbers. So that is really important. Make sure that you're measuring things. Now we have a more healthier relationship. For example, we're BI analysts, where we can go in and we can talk with them and try to think how can we visualize this result. So that is definitely very important.
Danny:
And one of the things, just to keep Claudia's train of thought going there is, she mentioned briefly, but base lining, where you're at now or where you've been before. If you're just saying, "Well, now we're here, but I can't really tell you where we were before." That can sometimes drown out your results. So even if you do need to delay something to get a baseline, sometimes that's very important to understand, what's the current state look like? Because you can't really get to that future state or there won't be as much celebration if you've got to the future state, if it's not something that's really substantial or measurable.
Danny:
I think the other thing here is, if you're asking for more resources for your team, or you want more resources to try things or to buy new software, or whatever it is proving that return on the investment, or proving that you're contributing to the bottom line, or bringing in new revenue, or whatever it is, that always helps those conversations by saying, "Look, I can quantify to you how much money were bringing in or how much we're adding to retention goals, or different things like that." And that makes some of those conversations a lot easier to have.
Claudia:
Sorry, I was muted. Exactly 100%. And now we want to talk a little bit about putting the product at the center of the customer experience, but also putting the product at the center of the organization entirely. And I think this might be a good segue to talk about what the organization in Jungle Scout looks like. And as you can see, actually, product and marketing are our biggest departments. I think that originally before we were in a marketing-led growth business. And I actually come from product. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm going to mute myself for a second. Okay, thanks. Sorry, is it too loud?
Danny:
It's okay for now.
Claudia:
Okay, good for now. Sorry about that. It always happens. It's Murphy. It always happens when you least expect it for sure. But the thing that I find really interesting about this new team that we're in, so as you can see, now we're in the marketing side of things, we have customer experience and product marketing. Now we're working with the brand designers, we're working with the product marketers, we're working with the [inaudible 00:22:37] managers, and we're looking into phases that we didn't control before that we have no say. For example, we're talking about managing pricing PJ's in advising plan. I'm sorry, one second. I think it's getting very loud now.
Danny:
Well, I can speak to some of this. So, originally, the way that this was, Claudia's team was part of the customer success team. And so a lot of what we were doing is, really driving the information that we were getting, or that we were sourcing from customers, from NPS feedback, from these different projects that we were doing directly, into the product managers, directly into the engineering teams. The people that were building the product. And I think at the time that we were doing that was during a time that facilitated some of the explosive growth that we saw now. It was an unorthodox choice at the time. Most of the time, that's not where you would find those organizations. But we were able to really make that work and to get some really great insights into the product, to make some change in the product, to really bring the voice of the customer and to put them at the center of that conversation more so than it had ever been done before.
Danny:
I think there was a logical point where it made a lot more sense now to think of the funnel as an entire process. Whereas, that was marketing's domain. They were doing the sales, they were doing the pricing, they were doing the lead gen. So putting CX in with marketing made more sense, because now you were thinking of that flat funnel as a flywheel. And you weren't thinking of retention as that thing that we need to do. It was now like, "Sure, it costs us money to acquire people, but it's better for us to keep those people over time and retain them, than it is just to try to keep getting more customers."
Danny:
And I can tell you like that was the mentality of a lot of the different parts of the companies, "You know what, it's easier for us just to get more customers than it is to keep some of the ones that we've got." And I think a lot of what Claudia has been able to bring into that team is giving them that full cycle mindset of, "These are our customers and we want to keep those customers because moving retention 5% can mean a 90% increase in revenue." And so that's been a just a huge driver of changing the way that we think about just retention, acquisition of customers, but also bringing a lot of that voice of the customer into a different part of the company that maybe didn't have as much of that penetration prior to this.
Ramli John:
I just got a question from Sam, if you guys don't mind. Yeah, Sam, if you want to jump in.
Sam:
Thanks, guys. There's a quick question around the difference between customer success and CX and what the different responsibilities are of the two roles, and what are the main metrics or objectives they're trying to achieve?
Danny:
Yeah, Originally, it was all the same focus in the same team. So it was really a team that was centered purely around adoption, retention, and then education initiatives. So those were the three core goals when we were one customer success team. Like I said, about a year ago, when we launched all of our enterprise products, we started to split those groups into two, where it's CX became more focused on just adoption, retention, and education initiatives. Whereas Customer Success became more of the direct connection for enterprise customers in a traditional CSM capacity.
Danny:
Because our consumer business is massive, like hundreds of 1000s of users on that side, Claudia's focus is still mostly on the consumer business. But now that our enterprise business is growing, it's growing rapidly, like we're probably going to catch up to our consumer business here, in the next year or so. Claudia is already starting to participate in stuff now for the enterprise business as well. Whereas we were just sort of bootstrapping it at the very beginning to get that started and trying to carry forward a lot of the things that we had had wins with in the past.
Claudia:
Yes, for sure. And I think it's not as loud right now. So I'm going to try to keep it going.
Ramli John:
Could ask another question here?
Claudia:
Yes, for sure.
Ramli John:
Can you talk a little bit about the sales? It looks like sales reports to marketing, which is super fascinating. Fraser's asking if that's just for upsell opportunities, or re those also outbound opportunities as well?
Danny:
Yeah, it's both. It's both right now. The chief marketing officer is in control of all of sales and marketing right now. Sales has the director of sales, that's the functional leader. That's mostly focused on enterprise division. Whereas more traditional marketing own the website, and the pricing, and plans and things like that. But yeah, it all does roll up under sales.
Claudia:
Exactly. Most of that sales is, as Danny was saying, is enterprise sales. The small to medium businesses that we also handle are mainly just finding those through the pricing pages and all of that. But the sales team does work mainly for enterprise solutions.
Ramli John:
Can ask a follow up question? Has it always been like that? Or did it change to this? And I'm curious how the resistance was like, "Oh, a sales team, you're now reporting to the CMO?" I can imagine the sales org being very resistant to that question.
Danny:
Yeah, in this case, they grew up there. So there wasn't any resistance at all. The sales team was hired under the marketing team already. Now with that said, really, I do think at some point in the future, it may break off into its own organization. There was maybe, between our global teams, 10 15 people on the sales team, there's about to be like 60 people on the sales team. So I think at that scale, they're probably going to end up breaking it out into its own organization, organically around that.
Claudia:
And one important thing to remember is that we did not have sales from before. Our organization was started for small to medium businesses. Again, they were just finding us through the website and enterprising pages. And all of that sales really grew up, as Danny said, in marketing, when we started the enterprise solution.
Ramli John:
One more follow up question from Kate. She asked if you didn't have the enterprise customer success model, will you continue to book CX and CS under the same umbrella, would you say?
Danny:
That's a great question. And I've talked to my boss about this, because I asked, "do we want to bring it back?" There's been conversations about that. I think, product or engineering, someone needs this. There needs to be some form of CX on the product side at all times. And whether that takes the form of a literal CX organization, or just people that have that mindset, I think that's really critical. So in reality, there are still leaders and people on my team that functionally doing CX stuff still within product. I think that's one thing that they don't want to lose and that they were sad to lose when we did move some of that stuff over.
Danny:
I think, the other interesting thing is, even without enterprise, like we were dipping our toes into sales, like having sales reps. And a good example of this has been China. In China, we do have sales reps for our consumer business. And because of that, we sell 70% into annual plans versus monthly plans. And that's a big difference between the US business and the China business. So you've seen a much larger uplift in, ARR, or even MRR if you're thinking about that in another place, because our sales model is different. We tried, we experimented with something that was different than the US because our US model wasn't working the same way in China. So I think this is another example of being willing to experiment, even if something is working really well for you. Don't assume it's going to work well for you everywhere you're trying to do business.
Ramli John:
Thank you.
Claudia:
Yes, for sure. And now at the end that I wanted to call out and hear, hopefully they won't come back with that noise because I hear them closer, so of course we have our screen teams. We have a PM, a product manager in engineering, a UX designer, but we also originally have... One of those spring teams is dedicated to the product experiences in blogs and in working with the customer experience side of things to always improve on that. We recently created these Task Forces. The whole thing that we are working on, we're going to talk about that in a little bit. But we work a lot about building bridges and working in cultivating relationships within the departments. And so this Task force is actually... Are really nice, because we have people from different teams. For example, for the research one, we have people from product design and brand design, and maybe the content marketing and customer experience talking together about how can we move the needle with this research initiatives.
Claudia:
And we have localization where we have begun customer experience, the website, the brand design engineering, working towards the localization efforts that we have. We recently created this one for growth, where we work with, again, brand design, both product and brands, and product marketing, the website into different initiatives. So it's also about making sure that we have a lot of communication and that we are having those syncs and sharing those initiatives and just working together for the same goal. Now we have this bi weekly syncs with leadership where we work with people operations and product and finance and marketing and everybody from team in China, just to understand how all of the initiatives that we're working on are taking us. So that's a little bit about the work do. Do we have any more questions than this one Ramli?
Ramli John:
Yeah, I have one question for myself, who owns user onboarding here? I'm curious, is it like, a customer success?
Claudia:
We do. Of course, as I was saying, we have this green team as well, it's called team Fox, that works in the product experiences as well. So we do work very closely with the PM and the engineers, and now as well with bi so we can work on those experiences. But the onboarding part of it is mainly on ICX.
Ramli John:
Makes sense. Oh, got another question from Chandra Mouli. He asked, can you please give some examples of experiments, and typically how long the stakes. He's trying to understand experiment categories like pricing, UX, UI, and frequency of experiments.
Claudia:
I know that we run pricing plan experiments. I can double check a little bit. But we usually run it for I think it's a month or two. Again, see, they're coming back. They know when I'm going to start talking and they come back to us. Bad time. But the other ones, for example, the experiments that we were running, maybe not such as an experiment, we do them in the pricing pages. But before onboarding is we were testing different types of onboarding. We were going into the baselines and for example, trying to tie in, "Okay, we have this many customers that we're reaching, and this are the results that we're getting and this is the hypothesis. And maybe if we move to a larger on-demand option, then we can reach a bigger audience and they will retain more." So we were working with those ideas as we were thinking on the initiatives, for example, this onboarding video that I have been talking about, which is the one that we have been experimenting or testing with. So some of them just evolved naturally, I would say. But I can definitely get some information about the experiments on the pricing pages that are done mainly by my boss.
Danny:
Yeah, and the frequency is, like I said, we're typically trained to do like a month to six weeks at a time so that we've got a good amount of data to get some results. But also that we're not running any experiment so long that if we're failing, we just keep that going. So that we can take stock, pullback, do a retro and then move on to the next thing.
Claudia:
Important to note as well is that we are also just learning as well how to optimize that side of things, because we want to do more. And we're learning from what we have been doing in the past. So we are also learning from ourselves about how and when to experiment more with the initiatives.
Ramli John:
Thank you.
Claudia:
Perfect. So another thing that we want to talk about, as we were talking about the organization, so we've mentioned about aligning around the product. And one thing now that I'm in marketing that we have been advocating for is that we should all be thinking, how can we create a product that our customers love? How can we make this functionality or the product better, so it has less friction? But it is something that is an all of us, it's not just the product managers, or the engineers it's something that everybody should be thinking about. So advocating and building bridges is something that we do a lot. And sometimes you have to be your company's product-led evangelists. And I heard some of you are doing it like by sharing these articles and having these channels with the insights. We actually have as well for MPS and some of those responses.
Claudia:
One of the first things that I did when I moved over to the marketing team was, we held a lunch and learn about Product-led Growth, what it is, why it's becoming more important. We talked about the main three elements that we need to master and some other topics. And when you sit down and you talk about it with your team, it does make sense. And I remember from one of, I think, Wes' quotes, "And in some point Product-led Growth is just going to be cool, like doing good business." And that is right, it just clicks with people when you sit down and talk about it. And I remember after that presentation our product marketer was just constantly talking about how can we avoid the value gaps? And I just want to make sure that you're not creating a value gap. How can I make sure that I did not create one myself?
Claudia:
So talking about it, being that evangelist, is sometimes something that you definitely are going to need to do. But one thing that has been super useful for I think both Danny and myself, are the relationships that we have been able to cultivate along the way with different teams and different stakeholders. And like I mentioned, our recent addition to these Task Forces where we have constant collaboration with team members from different departments so we can make things happen and get the ball rolling, a lot of times is like, "Oh yeah, we want to do this but we are we have a roadblock because this other person or from this other department is not on board." But those interdepartmental relationships are so important just to start the ball rolling and get things happen, make things happen.
Claudia:
Lead and research initiatives and involving other teams. I think that every company thinks that research is important but sometimes you just don't have the time to plan for it. So it is really good sometimes for some stakeholders to actually hear some of this feedback, as they say, coming straight from the horse's mouth. I think that's how you say it. Remember that qualitative feedback enriches that quantitative data and it does add some context. And as we mentioned, it's sometimes being given that number of phase, one thing that we started doing that Danny suggested, we started taking some clips from our customer interviews to some of these larger meetings, which is something that he was doing with the enterprise customers. And it does make a difference.
Claudia:
I remember in one of the protocol hands, we were playing this clips, and at the end of them, one of the engineering leaders was just like, "I just want to know what we're going to do to fix this." And one of the engineers up there was DMing me just, "Thank you so much for sharing this, I just want to go in and fix those bugs now." You take pride on what you do, and just hearing it from your customers and from the people directly, can sometimes make a difference.
Claudia:
So leading those research initiatives, and then sharing those results is very important. Research in a customer centric environment is always going to be key. But sharing the insights is definitely the next step. Sharing those results company wide as often as you can, make sure they are surfacing it to the right people. But think about the opportunities from that as you share the insights as well, because sometimes it's very easy to say, "Well, these were the results from the research that we conducted." But when you add, "And this is what we can do about it," to it, it's just easier for everybody to just jump in and chip in. So these are some of the things... Danny, I know you probably have a lot of things to add in here.
Danny:
No, I think you've covered it really well. But just don't stop. You've got to keep that communication going across in some of this, as that relationship building, some of that is proving that you're moving in the right direction. And then I think what my boss asks me a lot is, "Are we doing something about this? Is this information only?" So I think qualifying your results in a way of like, "Here's the results, here's what we're going to do, here's what we need help with." Being able to clearly articulate those things at the end of a project or something, I think that's always going to be a way to keep people interested and continue to get investment going forward.
Ramli John:
Let's have some questions around this. Thank you for sharing this. One of them is from Joseph who asks, "It seems like you've gone a long way in your PLG journey, what you have, what are some things you wish you knew earlier in your journey?" Another way to phrase it is if you can give yourself advice like two years ago, if you can go back in time and give yourself advice, what would you tell that younger version of yourself?
Danny:
Yeah, I think that's a great question. And if I get a time machine, I'll definitely do it. But one of the things that I think always comes back to me, and Claudia and I talked about it a lot is, I think early on we were working very hard and accomplishing a lot of things. I don't think that we were socializing the results of those in a way that was beneficial to keep getting that buy in and to keep getting that investment. I think the other harder part of that was we did have a leadership change in the middle of some of that. So all of the traction, progress and convincing that we had done with one person, it had to start over again. And so that did make it difficult.
Danny:
So investing in that new relationship was something that we put off because we were busy. And I think that was a bad decision that maybe set us back a good six months in our progress internally, because it was like we had to start all over again. And that part wasn't as fun, but I do think it's really all about that bridge building. It really is about making connections, keeping aligned with people. If we had started doing that earlier, I can imagine how much farther we would be now than we are. I really do think that that was probably the biggest setback that we had along the way. But it's something that anybody that's in the early stages can start doing that today.
Claudia:
One thing that I also would maybe love to tell is, two years ago I think we were measuring things but I think we were not measuring with leadership wanting to see at some point or not translating it well as we've seen. I have a way better relationship with our BI team now. This year I started to have biweekly meetings with our senior analysts and just tried to talk about it. I am a data geek like I love numbers. And I have been trying to get better at that. So metrics to me and again, measure always measure early on and often. I think translating that into what leadership wants to see, I think that the corporate retention, and you mentioned in one... Those were actually real numbers compare with people that go throughout onboarding, more success based with compared to people that don't, and they love that they love to see the number translated into revenue into the percentage. And I think that was one of the things that I wish would have done sooner to get more buy in maybe.
Wes Bush:
And I guess on that note of metrics too, how did your metrics change from the beginning, like two years ago? What were you really focused on as far as your KPIs and what does that look like now? Did that much change? Since I know you were focused on the customer experience at that time, too. But here's to hear, like that whole transition for metrics.
Claudia:
Yeah.
Danny:
I'll say one thing. But I think initially, we were focused a lot on time on site and NPS and those things were important, but we couldn't always quantify, is more time on site actually mean a better customer? Or is that actually a bad experience? Should they be using the product less if it's really intuitive? There was a lot of questions that we couldn't answer. And I think the difference came is when we started correlating things together, and I think the first person that did some, our correlations between different activities, and it was some really basic stuff. But I think that was the very beginning.
Danny:
And I can say, people that did XYZ are better customers, people that did this, spend more with us, or stay longer, or go for an annual plan versus a monthly, all of those kinds of things. When I was starting to turn that data into something that was consumable in an executive meeting, that was the thing that turned the tide. And so a lot of our things are now, hey this is how much money people that going through the training program are contributing to our net retention goals. That's a real tangible number. And you can see that percentage is increasing or decreasing. You can see the dollar amount. So I think those were some of the ways that we changed. And we still talk about some of those other things, but the context is much different. And Claudia I know you're working on a lot of this right now, so...
Claudia:
Yeah, I think for me the biggest change company wide is that now one of our main company goals is retention, and it wasn't before. And now we have three big company wide goals and one of them is retention. I think before we were also looking into for example, churn a lot in a different way or getting maybe caught up in it. And now we are looking at, for example, the churn service and the information as opportunities for growth. And how can we apply this into making better experiences? It is just saying, "People are leaving." Okay, what are we learning from that people that are leaving and how returning that into action in braves and opportunities so we can improve?
Wes Bush:
Awesome, thanks for going over that. That's super helpful. And I think there was a question too on, do you use any frameworks as far as metrics go? I know Ranjan you mentioned like Google's Heart framework. If you do want to clarify, do Ranjan feel free to jump in. But yeah, curious to hear from a metric standpoint, any frameworks you use?
Ranjan:
Sorry for jumping in. It's just like where do you start? How do you ground yourself? Because I often find that you're swimming in metrics sometimes if you don't know how to use it. And Claudia especially if you're such a number and metrics junkie, I would love to hear, how do you cut through some of those noise? How did you make the decision to narrow the right metrics? So I don't know if that's going off bounds on this, but it just so much helpful to focus people on a handful of things than many things. So just curious.
Danny:
Yeah, I'll say I brought Heart to the product team. I think it had mixed reception. I think some people agreed with the framework. I think they were questioning, is it really just about the metrics though? And then when we looked at the metrics as an example, I think the response was we're already doing that. We had evolved Hearts naturally, organically through just trudging through the mud to get there. But what I do think it did was it was a good way to socialize some of the other things, like hard talks about happiness, and engagement, and we were thinking about all of those things. But were we making those KPIs explicitly, more of those parts of it?
Danny:
And I think if you were to look at our OKRs and KPIs and everything that we're tracking and managing now, it very much aligns with the Heart framework. We're not calling it that, we're not saying that. But I think that's where we ended up and it was an organic process versus let's pull a framework off the shelf. With that said, I think it's a solid framework. It may be more mature than where most people are at today. And I think you've got to find a way. If you can even get just the A and the R just start with and then go into some of the other things. I think that's good.
Claudia:
Yeah, and info-metrics for our team, as I mentioned, I actually have been working more closely with our BI team so we can discover some of that. But, for example, before I was reporting a lot in numbers, for example, in audience in breach, but I was not translating that into how much does this mean it got for revenue or retention numbers. So I'm focusing more on that retention side of things. And how does all of our results promote initiatives translate into that main goal? Because again, you have to look into what are your company's main KPIs? How can you chip in to that? And how the projects that you are doing are helping to achieve that goal.
Claudia:
So that is something that I have been working on. And don't get me wrong, I'm still learning. I learn every day as we said before, one of our core values is just test and iterate, and go from there and learn from what you have done before and just give it another try, and try to get better results. But yeah, I think that tying that in, again, to the main company goals in trying to figure it out how you can help achieve that is definitely going to help. And by the way, this was actually the end of the presentation. So we want to do more questions, and definitely we can.
Ramli John:
There's a few. Yeah, thank you so much. We really do appreciate you breaking this on. Even I found it... I found it interesting.
Wes Bush:
I could say this was awesome.
Ramli John:
There's a question from Monaco Welbeck on, which one was the first experiment you ran? And how would you recommend that in terms of low effort, high impact? Because I'm guessing if you're starting off with this, you want to make sure you get that quick win really fast so that you can go rah rah the whole team and rally them around that win. So what was that first experiment that you ran, if you recall?
Claudia:
I [inaudible 00:51:36] remember. I actually think we were talking about it. Maybe it was not an experiment per say, but it had baselines and goals. And I think it was the one that Danny mentioned, bringing in self service. Self service is so important. I know you've probably touched in this certification and that is how you can see the impact that it made. It was cutting down the customer support tickets and workload by 50%. And that was one of those, first on big wins, I think that we had Danny. Right?
Danny:
Yeah, it definitely was. And I think what we were really testing there was, what is the best way to do that? I think we were testing, does making the help articles better work, or is that worth not investing? Should we just put the bare minimum up there? Some of the stuff was, what technology do we use? We tried using a technology called the Levio because it was really easy to integrate. But longer term, Pendo was more robust. So we ended up switching to that. So I think we were running tests around it, but it was more around, what is the best way to do this?
Danny:
I think we were aligned on the idea, it was some of the actual steps to getting to that end result. I think we were all surprised with how much it went from 14,000 tickets to 6,900 over three months. So it was a massive reduction in terms of just sheer volume. But then it was like okay now what, what's next? So I think that's the other thing is, you need to be prepared for that next step. And you also need to be prepared for, is whatever you just did sustainable, or did you just set a new baseline? 6,900, now is that too much? What are you going to do to keep that going? And so there's always thinking about future phases and how you continue to build off those initial wins.
Wes Bush:
And Danny, one of the things when we were talking yesterday that I loved through your perspective is, could you just talk a little bit more about the importance of setting realistic goals early on? Because I've seen other people go down this PLG path, set some super aggressive goals, let everyone know they're creating this really aggressive vision, which I like. But there's definitely a downside to it. So why not just touch on that.
Danny:
Yeah, of course. And I think this is one of those things that you either learn by, you're just intuiting that this is the right thing to do, or you just made some mistakes. And I think for me, it's a little bit of both. We were very confident we could move the needle on a lot of things. But I think there's a trap that you can fall into of setting the goal too high, being over ambitious. And I would love to over deliver and underestimate, what I'm going to say a lot more than the other way around. But I think some of this is about getting quick wins. Setting up smaller sustainable projects that you really have more control over that you can say, "Our first goal is maybe not super ambitious, but it's a first step towards something like that." And that way, if that bet doesn't pay off, you don't lose all of your credibility.
Danny:
And so I think it was more building off of some of those quick wins, that helped us get the buy in for some of the larger projects, that helped us get the buy in for some of those larger investments. And yeah, I think we did make some bad choices along the way of saying, "Oh, we can bring down churn a lot." And then when it came time, we could bring it down for a month, but then it was back up the next. And so there are things where I think, whether it's understanding seasonality or understanding other factors that might set you back, you really do need to understand the whole landscape.
Danny:
And I think that's why, I talked earlier about base lining. Base lining can be great, but if you're going to sell into a time, if you're looking at changing something over the biggest time of the year, when you're going to see explosive growth anyway in your business, that doesn't bode well after all those numbers fall off. So I think just really being honest about what you can achieve, setting realistic goals, and then hitting those, you start to get more and more leeway for taking bigger chances or trying things that you may not have got buy in for before.
Wes Bush:
Absolutely. And I think a big piece of that is it just gives you that sense of momentum, whether that's on your just self or your team, and then other people again started seeing. I know one of the things that you did after that is really just make sure that when you're working with other teams, you're always communicating the wins as well to get more people bought in. But Danny, I know you got to jump. So thank you for coming on here. I know Claudia you can stick around for a bit longer. But we really do appreciate you both sharing just what it took for Jungle Scout to really lean into becoming more product-led. This has been fantastic.
Danny:
No, I appreciate you guys inviting us and I always learn something, and great questions from the group. But always feel free to reach out to Claudia and I, whether it's LinkedIn or through any of the other channels we've got. We'd love to share our knowledge with other people and help others out. So great seeing everybody today.
Wes Bush:
Awesome. Thanks, Danny. Awesome. And Ramli, back to you.
Ramli John:
Yeah, thank you so much. I know we want to jump back to the thing. And we're just about to wrap up really quick here. So people are saying thank you. Let me share my screen one more time here. So many tabs. Do you mind sharing, Wes actually if you don't mind sharing your...
Wes Bush:
Yep, this is the mirror boardroom.
Ramli John:
Yep.
Wes Bush:
Cool. Yeah, here we go. Okay. So the next piece is really just to [inaudible 00:57:33]. We're curious to hear, what is your biggest takeaway from the course so far? So I see some people have already took a little stab at it too, but why don't we put the link in the mirror board in?
Ramli John:
I beat you to it
Wes Bush:
You're too quick. I love it. Cool. I see some more people jumping in here. That's awesome. So I'll just read through as you add them, but I'm super curious to hear, what is your biggest takeaway from the course so far? This is a really helpful activity because when you're thinking about it, you're going to pull up stuff from week two, week three. And from a memory perspective, this is actually going to help you more than us as far as the biggest takeaways. So feel free to take a couple minutes to go through and just think about what were some of your biggest learnings from taking this program so far?
Ramli John:
You want to play some music Wes?
Wes Bush:
I guess I can do that or I can figure that out. You're the mirror pro.
Ramli John:
All right. I'll put one minute.
Wes Bush:
Perfect. (silence) All right, sounds pretty quick. But if you're still thinking of something, feel free to still go through it. I'm just going to review some of these. I think the first one, I love this, is that you're starting to see it more as a team sport. And I remember just what initially got me excited about Product-led Growth in the early days. I initially thought it was just this free trial of freemium model. And I started digging into it and I'm like, "Oh my goodness, there's so much more to it, you really have to think about it from your org design, you got to think your marketing team has to act a bit different. Your product team needs to think about the product differently." And so I'm so happy that that came through, that it is really that org wide initiative. CX is definitely at the center of it all really just delivering that amazing customer experience.
Wes Bush:
Thinking about my socks, no friction wins. Love it. Sounds like you got a pair of PLG socks. Truly takes a village to get started on the journey. Absolutely. PLG is a company strategy, not a product strategy. That's a big one. Especially I think that one of the problems with calling it product-led, like I'm a product lead company or something like that, is a lot of people do think it's like, "Oh, it's you're just using the product. And it's just a product strategy." But no, it's a full company strategy. So I love that perspective, too. It's actually much simpler to implement it by doing small initiatives if the team is on board. Absolutely. And I think even with the talk today, too, with Claudia and Danny, just start small, try and pick like one quick thing, it doesn't even have to be a free trial free model. That's a pretty big first initiative to launch, if you're just dipping your toes into this.
Wes Bush:
But start with something smaller too, just make sure you really understand what that success looks like and what that problem is that you're solving. And then communicate those wins. I think that's the other new skill a lot of us have to pick up because we are being that PLG champion within the company. And target users versus decision makers. That is a really big transition, especially if you are sales-led right now. Because we've all been taught, let's target the decision makers. They're the ones who can sign the big checks and make the big deals. But when you're product-led it's often the users and sometimes it can be the same person, which adds to the confusion. But most times when you're selling to B2B, it is a bit different. They're different people. Awesome. So PLG is a whole org effort. And user success is our company's success. I love it. Thank you everyone for sharing that.
Wes Bush:
Before we go through just the last steps, we do have homework assignments. Since I have seen in the chat that some of you are behind. Oh, my goodness! I know we threw a lot at you over the last six weeks. So you do have more time to complete it. But one of the things that we wanted you to go through this week, is really just thinking about the next 30, 60 and 90 days, what does that look like for your business? And so it's a simple worksheet that you can go through but what we're hoping this is going to allow you to do is really just start breaking down. Okay, you've gone through the program, you know a lot of the big challenges ahead of you, but how are you going to implement? And almost every time I typically go through this piece with teams, especially in a workshop format, I'll see the 30 day plan is mile high. And then it gets a bit smaller at the 60 day plan because we're exhausted all the ideas. And then by 90 day plan, we're thinking two, three things, hopefully, we can get done.
Wes Bush:
And what Danny was mentioning too, set yourself up for success, set realistic goals for the first 30 days, as far as what you're going to do to move forward and really build a better, more successful product-led business. So, that's really where the rubber meets the road. You now know the theory, you've been able to see the case studies around this, you still have access to those resources, so you can always go back to them whenever you need to. But one of the areas that I'm really excited to announce is we decided to run a implementation mastermind group. So this is if you show up, which kudos to you, you got to show up to the PLG graduation next week, you can sign up here. But we're actually going to introduce you to your mastermind group. We've tried this actually, at the very beginning of the program, but this is the first time we're actually going to try it at the end.
Wes Bush:
And what we're hoping here is that, in that first call with your mastermind group, it'll be about three or five other people who are in the program at a similar stage company, similar stage role as well. And so when you're in that group, you're going to go through this 30, 60, 90 day plan with them. And really, they're going to be there to keep you accountable. And I have been in tons of mastermind groups, and one of the things I absolutely freaking love about them is that whenever you go show up, the format's similar to this, you can feel free to change it up. But you'll meet on a Zoom call, you'll find in that first meeting on that graduation day, you'll get to meet them and figure out what that time is every week. But you'll show up, and you'll have a challenge or something like that that's been bothering you around moving this initiative forward.
Wes Bush:
And it is going to be super useful to just be open, share your problem, and get some honest feedback from other people who are thinking about it from a different angle. And I tell you, whenever I show up to the mastermind groups I'm in, myself. Sometimes it's not even that these ideas I'm hearing from the other people are absolutely brilliant or anything like that. It's just I have actually the space now to think about it. And because I've been talking it out loud and thinking through the problem itself, sometimes you come to the conclusion on your own, and you're like, "Man, I have a really amazing takeaway from this one mastermind." Other times, your group can just help you spot different areas, get you to think about different things from different angles, which is just as valuable.
Wes Bush:
So what we're hoping is that since this is technically the last class of the PLG program, this is not the end of your PLG journey, this is just the beginning. And you now have the group and the knowledge to go ahead and wreck some havoc and really make some big moves as far as it comes to implementing this piece at PLG. So super excited for you to go through this. So make sure you fill out this form for the implementation mastermind group, ideally before Monday. Because it is going to take our team some time to go through and match you all up into these beautiful groups that have some similar timezone, similar businesses, and similar levels of roles as well. So that you're with people who yes, are from really interesting roles and solving similar problems too. So the other thing too, is just the final exam. And so that, please try and complete it by Thursday, June 3rd as we'll be announcing, if you haven't, on the PLG graduation, which is going to be next Thursday, from 12:00 PM EST to 1:00. And that's it. Ramli, was there anything else you wanted to go through?
Ramli John:
No, that's it. I just dropped all the links in in the comments. I'll also drop this in the slack community. Guys, I will be on holiday. So is beach attire suitable? Yes, it's suitable. How much time should we budget Chandler asked, for the exam. How long would you say the exam takes Wes, since you...
Wes Bush:
It's really quick for me since I know the answers. But if you're going through it, it could be, maximum is probably around 30 minutes, 30 to 40 minutes, if you spend about a minute for each of the questions. But there's no time limit. So you could take longer.
Ramli John:
Sure. And you can try it as many times. Right? If you don't pass the first time, you can retake it. Any questions, we still have Claudia. I know that people who have stuck around... I don't know if you want to answer more questions Claudia? You know how this works out. Thank you so much if you do have to jump off. But what Wes and I usually do is stick all the way until the final question. Claudia feel free to drop off because this is our fun part, is just us asking people what the questions are and answering it.
Claudia:
I do need to jump off in a little bit. But I did see a question I just wanted to talk through. So a couple of people were asking, what were I think grilling sales? So I just in case, as sales is right now only for the enterprise product, we are just diving into enterprise right now. So it's actually fairly new for us. But we are applying most of the Product-led Growth to our existing small medium businesses just in case. But I do agree, we should try to think about how to cut down on sales. But we're still working on that for the enterprise product just in case. And again, as Danny was saying, if anybody wants to connect offline through LinkedIn, or even the product-led Slack, feel free to ping guys. We're always happy to chat with people about initiatives and I can talk about product-led for hours. So let me know. So we're happy to share what we have learned so far.
Wes Bush:
Awesome. Thanks so much, Claudia.
Claudia:
Thank you.
Wes Bush:
And I guess for everyone else too, if you do have to jump, that's totally fine. We're going to stay on for questions. So if you do have any more questions, you wanted to jump in, feel free to the chat or unmute yourself as well. But honestly, from the bottom of our hearts, thank you so much for coming to this program. and staying until the end. This has been an absolute blast room. And I always look forward to these calls. We did earlier this year, make the jump to this unmanned program.
Wes Bush:
And then I remember, I was talking to Ramli and I'm like, we did this one workshop. I'm like, "I missed this." This is something that honestly brings us a ton of energy. So hope you got some of that energy too. And got some great takeaways from the program too. And as Ramli always mentions too, feel free to if you have questions throughout the program, or if you're going through, or are you going through the program too, don't hesitate to reach out to us because we're here to support you. And we definitely want to see you succeed as far as building a successful product-led business. So thank you. Awesome, David. Glad to hear it was really enjoyable.
Sam:
Hey guys, I had a quick question, but obviously wanted to say thanks to all for the course it's been brilliant. My question was for early stage companies, which of those specialized functions do you think it makes sense to set up first, whether it be business intelligence, data analytics, customer success or any others like product marketing, for example? What do you think is an important one to get in a smaller company?
Wes Bush:
So is this really just the organization or the team that is going to take the product-led initiative, the first and really drive it home? Or did I misunderstand that question?
Sam:
So yeah, in my case, it's the same thing. So the team, the company. Just generally that the specialized roles you think are most important to PLG.
Wes Bush:
Okay, yeah. So one of the things that I mentioned in the book, is more like having a tiger team. And Claudia did have her Sprint team. It's pretty similar, actually, there was a PM, and then there was engineers, and someone in product design. So they could basically go through and test their ideas very quickly, since they have the resources. And typically the engineers on that team, they're not the engineer who is like, "This needs to be perfect." No, you don't want the engineer on that team. You want the president who's like, "I can create something and whip it up pretty quickly, it might break, but we'll see how it'll work just to test this hypothesis." Because the longer it takes, obviously, the more expensive that experiment becomes.
Wes Bush:
So yeah, it is important to have the fast mover engineers on that team as well to structure that. And yeah, for that PM too, if they did have a bit of background around customer experience, and were privy to what that looks like, that would be a huge asset to that team. Because a lot of these things, especially when it comes to the first quick wins is really just going to be or it might seem like obvious stuff. Like, "hey, we're adding a ton of friction. We have a lot of these form fields and stuff like that," that you can really start removing or getting rid of to see some of those great wins across the board. Awesome, great question Sam. Cool. Does anyone else want to jump in? Feel free to unmute yourself or if you just want to type your question in the chat that works, too.
Ramli John:
You have a question from Deepa. Oh, go right ahead. You unmute yourself.
Deepa:
Yeah, this wasn't a question. This is Deepa. So I have posted a request in the Slack channel of PLG cohort 2021. I'm setting up a user testing panel for my pricing page. So I would love this team to set up critique and review the pricing page of my company, and give me some ideas and your feedback. I would love that. So if people can volunteer, I would be very appreciative.
Wes Bush:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think if anyone else in the group too, wants to go in and jump in and give feedback, too. I really hope that that channel really just becomes a place where if anyone wants feedback, whether it's for the pricing page for the onboarding experience or something different, they use it just for the purposes that you are using that for Deepa. You are going to be able to get people who are really open to giving that constructive feedback. And so, yeah, that is awesome. And just going to make sure that we have some people go through that or myself.
Deepa:
That'll be fantastic. So I'm recruiting a formal panel, instead of just collecting feedback. So it'll be helpful to just have it in the tool and collect all the feedback that way.
Wes Bush:
Awesome, that sounds great. Thanks, Deepa.
Deepa:
Thank you.
Ramli John:
People also asked when the PLG live summit in person is going to happen, Wes?
Wes Bush:
Oh, yeah. Probably not this year with COVID. But yeah, there will be a live PLG summit soon. My partner she's like, "It needs to be in Montreal." Because she loves Montreal.
Ramli John:
Speaking of Boston, because that's where [crosstalk 01:16:20].
Wes Bush:
It's tricky. We got to do a poll for the audience and see where everyone is. Because I know we have a lot of folks international audience too, so could be anywhere.
Deepa:
We need a warm weather, California weather.
Wes Bush:
Yes. Okay. We are from the same spirit. I'm all about warm weather. It's so it's like it would never be in Montreal in winter because Montreal winters are freezing. Yep. Awesome. And I saw there's a question about the book that's dropping June 8th. Yes. So that it's going to be super exciting.
Ramli John:
Yeah, for sure. We'll be sharing that out to anybody who wants it. I know Sam you filled it out, I saw that. I got your address, no worries.
Wes Bush:
Anyone else have a question they wanted to jump in. Feel free to just unmute yourself if you wanted to ask something. Cool. Well, if there's no questions, this is going to wrap up the last class but I hope to see all of you at the graduation next week. So make sure to get busy on that exam. And make sure you complete the worksheet as well. But this has been a blast and we'll talk soon. Bye for now.
